| All interviews were taped and documented. They are available through the Reference Department of the Teaneck Public Library. The Library is not responsible for the accuracy of the statements nor does it necessarily endorse the opinions expressed. |
| NARRATOR: | Charles Cox |
| INTERVIEWER: | Hilde Weisert |
| DATE OF INTERVIEW: | April 1, 1985 |
| TRANSCRIBER: | Jackie Kinney (12/1985) |
(N) That was an out and out attack on me to keep me off the board. And I don't think that had anything to do with color. That had to do with I was not establishment. I wasn't part of the party and I didn't ask anybody could I do this which I found out you were supposed to do. And you wouldn't necessarily have to ask if you were part of the party. The party would already say, OK. But I was not part of the party; I didn't ask; and I didn't fit. And I was already making waves before I even got on so it was definitely, let's stop this before... plus I was running against somebody who was black, who was party, who was OK. Which in itself was wrong. The cards were definitely against me.
(I) Has there been any lingering bitterness from that?
(N) Sure. Because the black community, no I can't say the black community, the black organization, the one black organization that should have been for any black that ran almost castigated me and I never forgave them for that. And they did it in such a way that they knew this was poker and whoever wins is, the bet was everything I got and everything you got - whoever wins this is going to come, the loser is going to be a loser. And I don't even speak to some of those people just because instead of saying yeah, we will back any black, they wanted to know who the hell are you? These people have been in this town ten years; I have been here for thirty. Are you going to ask me who am I? And that was the one thing that bothered me more than anything else, the attacks on me, everything, I just could not handle it. They could have said they were sorry but they didn't and that just feuled it and we don't get along too well now. If there is a function and they are going to be there, I am not there. I mean if they give things that are politically acceptable, I don't go to those because it is politically acceptable that I could do what I want to do. Especially when it comes to black on black. Nobody cares. Me either. Because I did it without their help so to speak.
(I) So there really was an established black political structure that you bypassed.
(N) Well I didn't try to bypass them.
(I) But you just didn't know, didn't even look into it.
(N) I had no idea. I didn't know you were supposed to go looking for groups. Groups came to you and they said, we'll back you. I mean I had the concerned parents, they came to me. They were helping and the Teachers Association was helping and you have different organizations that will say, well you've got good issues, we will back you. But this organization was trying to tell me, you are in the way of this black person.
(I) Do you think the idea was correct that it was either you or their candidate, that it had to be one of you?
(N) No, there is no way that is correct. None whatsoever. And you know I am not going to speak badly about the candidate but who's to say that what they feel that candidate possessed was right because I know it was wrong. I knew she'd be disastrous if she got on it. But they didn't take time to figure that out and it was only through a couple of people that I knew personally who happened to be in that organization that came to my defense at this organization's hearing for candidates. I mean I was kind of floored with, who are you? I started to do one of those cowboy things, you know, throw the table over, just get kind of crazy. How are you going to ask somebody who are you? You don't ask things like that. But I knew right then that that was going to be a problem so I eliminated that because I didn't need problems. There were too many groups that I already had. I didn't need that.
(I) It must hurt though.
(N) Of course it hurts. It hurts tremendously. But looking at the numbers it didn't hurt because the northeast, logic is going to tell you, they'd never seen a black run for office other than Mr. Mohammed and he lost and I mean I just had the cards in my favor. Grew up in the town, went through the system, younger than most candidates, it was just kind of too much to say no to and basically I was known throughout the community. I don't care who, how long you had been there, you either knew my mother and her sons or you knew me so you know I didn't see that there was a problem there. But I am very thankful that that organization didn't have the power that it thought it had to stop me from.
(I) Do you think things will ever come around with them?
(N) No because that's something they will never be able to shake off. I don't know if I will either.
(I) Are they still a force?
(N) You really can't say because since nobody's running now, nobody needs anybody to back them. But they couldn't have been too much of a force because they didn't help her win against Ann Messereau so it is more than just a black force, it is a political force and that political force happens to be associated with that force which is in power now and that force which is in power now is not necessarily keen on those members of the board who win. Usually those who lose are the ones that they are backing which says something. It is kind of strange. It is kind of scary too. Kind of scary because they kind of led me into this and everybody just kind of common knowledge, Board of Education is kind of like a stepping stone to things to come. I can't say it is not. (END OF TAPE 1 - BEGIN TAPE 2)
(I) You were saying the School Board can be sort of a door to other things. Would you like that?
(N) I don't know. I've gone through my stages of fantasy but I don't know. I really don't. I guess a lot will be determined if I decide to run again and if I win if I run. You know, if you spend six years on the board of education, that's kind of like junior high school and high school and you have to go for a higher education which is kind of being offered now. I just got an invitation from Harvard to get a M.P.A. which is a masters in Public Administration. It is for just elected officials which is like, what? Who is looking at something like that? I mean that is something you turn down.
(I) So you are getting known.
(N) There is a list of elected officials and I am on it whether I want to be or not. It is just something that whether people want to or not, as right now, I am a part of history. There is nothing I can do about that. And as long as I can continue feeling OK with being a politician then I might continue. I don't know. It's hard. It is very hard.
(I) Do you feel you have humanized the board a little bit?
(N) I am not going to say it is just me but I'm sure these people could not have, it wouldn't have been this kind of board had I not been there and I know that it was getting too humanized because Jackie Casecart came on and said, we are not going anywhere to have meetings again. All meetings are going to be held in this town right here. When we went to Vermont, she thought that was the wildest thing a board ever did. I mean a lot of people thought it was. It was kind of crazy but that's how close the board was getting. We felt comfortable with each other.
(I) Was that a productive meeting?
(N) Of course, I mean when you are sitting around 90 degrees and the lake is right there and you go take a ride on the boat if you feel like it and you know we got a lot of work done but it was, you went where to hold a what? And it was a public meeting. We said, hey, we are having a public meeting. Anybody who wants to come, come on up. The town went crazy.
(I) That was one of the bigger controversies around here.
(N) It was a controversy that wasn't because there was nothing anybody could do. All you could do was pack up your car and come on up. I mean we went to a board members house, just happened to not be here. We didn't do anything illegal. We publicized it, we made it known. Those kinds of things were going on. We were going strong. And that was the one board that hated each other. Really hated each other. It went to a board that spent overnight, two days together. The town couldn't handle that. They thought things were going to get out of hand and they wouldn't be able to hold on to it. And there was a, that's the other part of this whole thing. I now am a Teaneckian and I don't have any problem with that. I know where the common thread is in Teaneck. Everybody can't say that. But I know what that thread is and that thread is to keep Teaneck Teaneck. It takes some work doing that.
(I) That's interesting.
(N) It really is. It is scary because I didn't know I could be that kind of person. I mean I like Teaneck. Me personally, I think it has been fine. But now I understand why there is an opposition to widening Route 4. I understand why there is the animosity between the city council and the board of education. I understand why there is a lot of things because they want things to stay the same and in order to stay the same, they have to fight the change. I was part of the change. As subtle as it might have been. But if you've got fighting going on, you can't change anything. But if you've got everybody being nice, then you might have a chance to change some things. But one person said it pretty well. You know, if you don't want what Teaneck has to offer then you are supposed to go to another town because you can get the same thing in any town around. Any town you go to you are going to get the same thing. But you are going to get something different from, in Teaneck because Teaneck's different.
(I) Well it sounds like you feel two ways about that. That on one hand you like that and on the other, you are looking ...
(N) It is hard just for me personally because I am being a Teaneckian. I mean I have to go out and push Teaneck. Now a lot of people have a hard time with pushing Teaneck because they think it is the most racially backwards town around. How can I say that when I am part of what makes it not racially backwards?
(I) That's interesting.
(N) You got trees. You got a nice school system. You got different classes of people, I mean different ethnic groups. To me I have no problem with all of this stuff but there is, you know, strictly black and white there is a problem in the community and I have to kind of bypass that because there is a group out there that doesn't care about black and white. They just care about keeping Teaneck the way Teaneck is. And I found that out. That's the group that kind of helped me.
(I) Keeping Teaneck the way it is is contradiction to doing something about whatever the black/white problem is.
(N) Now keeping Teaneck the way it is, that's aside from black/white. They want..
(I) OK. 1 thought what makes Teaneck Teaneck is that it is diverse. Everybody loves the fact that it is diverse.
(N) That's all that they are talking about. Now part of being diverse means going through the changes of being diverse. That's going to be here. We got Indians, we got Spanish, Columbians, not just Spanish, we got Columbians, we got Puerto Ricans, we got east Indians, we got blacks, we got whites, we got Orthodox Jews, we got a lot of groups in this town and the only time you see a problem is when people make it a problem.
(I) From the point of view of somebody who, not necessarily your point of view but you said there are people who feel there really is a black/white thing that is there. What is that perception?
(N) What do you mean?
(I) What does, somebody who sees, feels that way, what is it that they see that is bad?
(N) They see the black population in Teaneck increasing.
( I ) Oh , OK.
(N) That's the only problem because now you see the high school that once was 90/10 white/black that is now 50/50. Now in anybody's eyes, that could be a problem. Even in black eyes that could be a problem because you might see down the road that black side which is taking place in Englewood which is now 80/10, that's a problem even to blacks. People just don't understand that that's not going to happen in Teaneck because it takes money to live in Teaneck. You can't be poor, there is not going to be an influx of a block from Harlem moving to Teaneck. It doesn't happen. A block might move to Englewood because there is low income housing. You got to be basically middle class to get to Teaneck because the housing is not cheap but now we've got an influx of Orthodox Jews and I saw racism at its truest when Jewish people were upset that Orthodox Jews were moving in by the droves. That kind of set me straight as far as what racism is truly about. Racism has nothing to do with color. It has to do with mentality. When I saw white's fighting whites or upset Jew for Jew and that's what I call Orthodox Jews and normal Jews, that's Jewish. There is no, I mean there is a difference you can see but I thought a Jew is a Jew but I found out that blacks and everybody else sit over there, you know, we'll get to you in a little while. That scared me because that's the kind of thing where you could lose that, you could lose the understanding of that. Some people never gain that knowledge. It hit me really hard but I didn't know what to do with that and that was scary. And in this little town.
(I) OK. How did this effect the school board?
(N) The school board got effected because the Orthodox Jewish community wanted to rent space that we were closing down schools, they wanted space and they'd come in and pay cash for homes and they will buy up a block or they will buy up whatever, and they like living in an area so whatever houses, so it is kind of like blockbusting with blacks. If an Orthodox Jew moves in on a block, everybody is going. Just because they do things a little differently. So that means if an Indian moves in on the block and they dress a little differently and they think a little differently, then it is the same thing. If a black moves in, they do a little, you know. It is the same kind of thing but with everybody else, you've got the whole community maybe a little upset. In this instance, it was nobody but this group and this group and they were intertwined so you leave them alone. But the board had to say, look, these people got the money, give them the space.
(I) And what was the argument against that?
(N) Well the argument was we already have a Catholic school, we already have public schools, we don't need an orthodox Jewish school. We don't need it because if you open one up , you are going to have an influx. Now that they have someplace to go and send their kids ...
(I) What finally happened?
(N) They got it because logic tells you, that's not my problem. We don't know what you are talking about this influx and what about it so they have Washington Irving. So what? So that's what I am saying. Logic always dictates but some people in the town don't have logic but that's what keeps Teaneck Teaneck. Logic always wins. It always does. It balances out with the hysteria.
(I) You like that?
(N) Yeah because that's the way I am. Now if things didn't balance out like that, I'd have a problem with being in Teaneck and continuing in Teaneck. Sure, you could make a problem out of there is a large black population in the Teaneck high school. So what? There is also a large Hispanic community. There is also a large non-Jewish, non-white, non-black community. Non-Hispanic. You just can't make it a problem. Other places have a problem. Teaneck got to deal with that problem. There is a way. That's why I have a problem going to meetings because meetings are not on kids. It is on, what are we going to do about the roof? What are we going to do with this extra $2 million we got? What are we going to do with this teacher, that administrator? I leave the room when names start being said because everybody on the board knows people personally and when they have to vote on people that they know personally, they have to eventually see that person and justify what they did. They may lie, they may be honest, they may be whatever. I don't have to do that. I can say, can we afford it, is it necessary, black and white. On paper. I don't want to know who we are talking about. Tell me the position.
(I) So you may vote but you just won't sit around
(N) I tell them, I don't want to hear the name. If you are going to say their name, I am leaving. So they a lot of times will say, you know who we mean, or they will say to themselves, we won't say the name they all know who they are talking about. I don't want to know a name. Then I become a personal friend of this person. I know all the principals, I know a lot of the teachers but I don't want to know about who I am voting on. I want to know the position. When we were closing the schools and we had to rearrange, they did that on who they knew and who they liked and I said, hey, I can deal that way. Who's got the seniority? Just deal the cards where they have to go and they are trying to balance and make room for those are the hard things.
(I) Let me ask you one more thing. I read there was a thing when the schools were closing about having to make choices between people with seniority and blacks/women. How did that eventually go down and where were you on this?
(N) That's a problem. That's a real problem. Because they went through a period where they went out and literally brought people, black people, to Teaneck busloads, brought them. Now it seems like they can't find a black person to fill some of these spots so we wind up with white males and you can easily put down six resumes and say, just looking at who is best qualified, pull that one out. Nine times out of ten it is going to be a white male. Nine times out of ten, why I don't know. Let's go a step further. Take the top two. It is going to be a white male, it is going to be a white female. OK. We will even go the top three. A black male or female. Doesn't matter., You see which finger stands up. That's the first one. And it is usually the white male. And on paper, you can justify picking the best qualified because if something, if you take the third best qualified, down the road, if you got a problem, somebody is going to say, why didn't you take the best qualified. It has nothing to do with color or anything else. Best qualified. Sometimes in my mind I have a problem with that. Take the best qualified.. I don't want to hear color. But that's affirmative action. Sometimes you are supposed to say, hey, take the one next to her to the first and that's usually a female. But then you got the other side of the coin that says, OK, yeah you got a female but what about blacks, Hispanics, something else. That's why you got computers. I don't want to hear about it. That's something that you just cannot work out.
(1) Was that tough with the closing?
(N) That was tough. That was real tough. But that wasn't the tough part with the closing. With the closing was you have a certain number of administrators that have been there, that have dedicated themselves to Teaneck and now all of a sudden, you want to find them a spot and you got two people over here that want to find somebody a spot and two people over here that want to find somebody else a spot and three people over there
(I) So everybody has their advocates.
(N) And there were a couple of people who were this close as far as seniority goes so who goes? That's when votes came up and it was, I don't want to know.
(I) Did you feel like it was fair?
(N) It had to be. As long as we are talking both are equal, I am voting on whatever it was, you know, somebody had a day or a week or whatever, I don't care, but somebody's got to be over and that's the person who gets it. I can't be concerned with that part because that part, I fall into the same rut but on the other side of the fence. I would be a racist if I said it has got to be a black person. I don't care what you say. That's why it bothers me. And that's why I say give it to the computer.
(I) So you really try to look at the objective.
(N) I don't want to know about color and I don't think people, Bernie kind of said it nicely at this gala we had the other day and he said people move to Teaneck because they want to come to Teaneck. They know what is here already. They don't come because yeah, they have a lot of black teachers or they got a lot of black kids or they got a lot of white kids or a lot of white teachers or you know, whatever. They know exactly what is here before they come. So that to me, and only to me probably, that takes pressure off as far as what has to be done racially. Racially things will fall into place I think. It is inevitable that racially things will fall into place.
(I) So you feel optimistic about where it is going.
(N) I have to be. I am optimism at its best because nobody would have put me here at this point being able to say these kind of things. To be in a position to say these kind of things. That's optimism. I sit home at night. You know, I don't go places because I am sitting there going, what is this? What is going on? And I have to say, this couldn't happen anywhere else. Maybe. But it happened here and I have to think that Teaneck prepared me for all of this. I mean I could have been a staunch racist living in the northeast, growing up in the northeast. I could have hated white people going to an black university. But Teaneck gave me insight into there is more than that. That's what Teaneck is about.
(I) Not a bad place to end it Charles.
(N) Thank you.
